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May 24, 2024 · 49 minutes

("Best-of" Edition from 4/5/24) Kendra White and Anne Cockrell, co-hosts of Hannah’s Heart return to “The Corner.”

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Show notes

0:00 - 15:00. Romans 8:5-8. Carnal mindedness places one at enmity against God. 15:00 - 31:00. Kendra White and Anne Cockrell, co-hosts of Hannah’s Heart return to “The Corner.” 31:00 - 48:00. Non-discard facilities, Alabama’s acknowledgment of person-hood in the IVF context, what is it all about?

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Transcript

8,499 words, in two-minute parts. Made by machine, so a few words may be off.

0:0048:53

  1. 0:00

    Darkness is not an affirmative force. It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light. This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio. It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite. Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media. And the philosophies of this world. God has called you and me to be His ambassador. Even in this dark moment. Let's not miss our moment. And now, the Hamilton Corner. Good evening, everyone. This is the day that the Lord has made, and I will rejoice, and be glad in it. And I invite you to rejoice with me, Abraham Hamilton III is my name. I'm the host of the Hamilton Corner of the program that you are listening to at the moment. I am accompanied by a produced extraordinaire, often imitated. Y'all know the drill. Never duplicate it. Not successfully, anyway. There is no AI chat GPT. That can replace Jeff MAC. You can put that on your bumper sticker, Jeff. Well, man, it is a great day. It's an honor and privilege to be in the Kingdom of God. It's also an honor to be able to converse with you. There are so many outlets available to you. And so you making the decision to invite us into your life, into your cars, into your homes. We certainly do appreciate that at this very moment. many of you, if not most of you are transitioning from your part time jobs, where you generate an income to your full time jobs where you cultivate an outcome. And as you do so, I want to remind you to do so with intentionality, understanding the promise that God places on family. What goes on in your house is far more important than what goes on in the White House. We will be hitting the road quite a bit this summer. June 6th through the 8th, Richmond, Virginia at the HEAV, 41st annual Home Educators Association of Virginia Conference.

  2. 2:08

    It's gonna be an amazing time there. Then we'll be in Denver, Colorado at the Rocky Mountain Home School Conference, June 13th through the 15th. Those are back-to-back weeks. You can go to afr.net, click on the More Info tab. You'll see a drop-down dialog box. hit speakers and that is where you can keep up with my itinerary for where we will be all throughout the year. I'm looking forward to not only being on the road but being able to broadcast live from from different places. We will broadcast live from the HEAV conference in Virginia. We also later on this is in September but will be in Nashville. Jay Mac and I will be there as well as more of the crew. You might get a Hamiltonian sighting there you know but we're We're looking forward to that. And let me just ask this question. Now have you got your tickets yet? Med your registration for the Culture Proof Conference? If not, what are you waiting for? Because I know some of you guys like to procrastinate and wait until the last minute and you're gonna wait and you're gonna wait and then it's gonna be too late. So go to cultureproof.net right now. Get your registration in. It is a conference for the entire family. In addition to the lineup of speakers I've been explaining to you telling you all about. My lovely wife will be directing the culture proof kids track to where your children will be introduced to apologetics. Will there also be culture proof teams where marketing Amy Warren will be leading that outfit but there's something additional that'll be available. There will be a workshop and a meet up for young adults. You know, I'm not trying to get anybody's business, but you know, one of the things that I strongly believe in that as the world is going haywire that I believe in getting good godly people together, especially if they're adults. And I ain't trying to match making anything, but I'm just saying, I'm just saying. It'd probably be a good place for your young adult to meet some other young adults that are similarly situated in sharing a biblical worldview I'm just saying. I told my wife I said, listen, I ain't, I'm not above arranged marriages.

  3. 4:11

    I'm not trying to force anybody, but listen, one of the things I'm going to be doing that I will do for my children is I'll be on the lookout. You know, I got, you know, look at Jeff, look at that. I'm using my eye. I'm not playing at all. I'm not playing it. I'm dead serious. I'm gonna be on the lookout, you know? So as my son gets older, as I'm telling you guys, I love my children. I want them to enjoy their adolescence, but let's keep it clear. Let's keep it a buck. My responsibility is to train them for adulthood. So we're not trying to arrest their development, you know, and for the ones who the Lord has revealed and it continues to reveal that it's his will for them to marry that my wife and I will be an integral part of that process. So we're gonna be able to look out. You know, I can see the time coming when I approach Christian, have you considered? Heh heh heh heh heh. Hey, I think I'm playing, I'm not playing at all. Heh heh heh heh. I'll be lowing to look out. I got two of them. I'm gonna look out. Something else that I'm aware of that might be a reality that the Lord may require and it may be necessary for me to disciple a young man who may be ultimately joined among one of my daughters, you know, that's a very real possibility. So I'm just saying, the other places you could be. But in July, I would suggest you make your way to Bartlett, Tennessee. I'm leaving right there. I watch registration about explode. Now, I'm just telling you, all right, to the word of we go Romans chapter eight, we're going to go back here. I introduced a discussion around these verses on Wednesday, but I want to continue it because, man, it's patently obvious that many professing believers do not comprehend or do not believe that carnal my didness is death.

  4. 6:19

    Romans 8, verses 5 through 8, this is what God's word says. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the spirit, the things of the spirit. For the mind set on the flesh, well some translations render that phrase, for to be carnally minded is death. But the mind said on the Spirit is life and peace. Because the mind said on the flesh or the carnal mind is hostile toward God. Or some translations say the carnal mind is at enmity against God. For it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so. and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. We talked Wednesday at length about the reality that the carnal mind carnal mindedness, the mindset on the flesh is death. Paul is writing this to Christians in Rome. Why? Because Christians can be tempted to and ultimately embrace carnal mindedness. This is how you can have a phenomenon where you have Christian men to get together, but all they really want to talk about is football or the stock market, or the latest cars, or how much money they have in the bank. Who has this? Who has that? Who has this? Who has that? That's carnal mind in this, man. And that mean we can't have conversations about these things that are substantive, but if every time we get together, this is all we talk about? How is that the frequent conversation? If Christ is our treasure. Oh, I ain't even know, man, me Christians. We ain't always gotta be talking about the spirit of thing. We ain't always gotta be talking about where the deep, the spiritual things are gone.

  5. 8:21

    That's true, you don't have to, but you know what I found? When you meet people, you meet their passion. When someone is passionate about something, you have a hard time keeping them from talking about it. All I'm saying is could it be that your frequent conversation topics, the things that you enjoy dialoguing about, could it be that it is revealing carnal mindedness? The apostle Paul continues on, but the mind set on the spirit, The mindset on the spirit is life and peace. Life in the temporal and eternal sense and peace in the temporal sense. This is how you can be in the midst of all kind of chaos, but there's an internal repository of peace. Exemplified, for example, when the storm is raging, the people on the boat are panicking, but Jesus is asleep. Master, don't you can't we perish? What, what, what, what? Have y'all forgot who was in this boat? But then verse seven, do we realize this? Because the mindset on the flesh, the carnal mind is that enmity against God is hostile towards God. Do you realize that? See, we have to understand that sometimes we understand that it's the cultural sense, but we don't really apply it to our devotion to Christ and I walk with him. There is no such thing as neutral, guys. There's no such thing as neutral. The carnal mind is hostile toward God. Why? Because he's... It have anything to take up bandwidth in your heart, to take up space in your mind, to take up residency in the core of who you are, which is where God is supposed to be, becomes an enemy of God. This is why I've said numerous times, when good conflicts with God wonder what's got to go.

  6. 10:25

    I explained before, man, my life, all the way up until I went to college was basketball. My parents will tell you, I slept with the basketball. I didn't play with toys, I didn't really play video games, I didn't really do anything unless it had to do with basketball. My sisters would tell you, my girl, he ain't interested unless it's balling. And what ended up occurring as the Lord captured my heart, first in saving faith, secondarily in sanctifying me, it's not that I ever stopped liking basketball. I still enjoy basketball to this day. You know, for the first time in my life, I'm watching the women's NCAA tournament way more than I'm considering amends and double eight tournament. By the way, LSU had a better team than Iowa. But Caitlyn Clark gave him the business. I don't know why Kim Mokey had Haley Van Litt's 5'7 garden Caitlyn Clark the whole game. Caitlyn Clark's 6' then the other thing I understand, why you kept letting the girl go left? She always dribbles side step to the left and take a shot. Sit on that left side, make her go right. Make her drive to the basket, make the other people away. Anyway, I still enjoy basketball. But what happened is that God captured my heart with the super-seeding love. I never stopped liking basketball, but Christ became more prominent in my affection, in my desire, and in my dialogue than basketball. People who know me my real life, my real life. Away from this microphone, they'll tell you, I'm consistently talking about the things of God. And I'm not saying this to pop my collar like, yeah, it's the only deep in the spiritual. But when you capture the love of your life, it's evident in everything about you. You can hide behind lies, but you cannot hide passion. The bottom line is if we are honest, the majority, I won't say the majority, but many of us, because I don't know the majority, but based on what's produced in terms of fruit, it seems evident that more in the professing body of Christ have other affections than they are affected toward the Lord.

  7. 12:31

    Some of us, we love politics more than we love the Lord. Let's just keep it apart. We have more confidence, more hope in our particular party, our particular candidates than we do in the Lord, that's just keeping it above. What we don't understand, though, what the Scriptures revealing is to be carnally minded, is to be an enmity against God, to have hostility toward God. Why? Because he's God. What's the first commandment? You shall have no other gods before him, before him. And that description includes before, beside, simply there are no rivals. But too many of us have become comfortable, accommodating, and hospitable towards carnal mindedness and I simply want to shake you out of that stupor to help you to recognize whoa it could be that my affections are revealing that while I profess to be in Christ I am steeped in carnal mindedness. Oh man how as a human rider says shall we escape if we neglect so greater salvation how can we be in Christ but yet fascinated and captured by something else. I understand we live in this world. I understand we need money to live in this world. I understand we have bills to pay. I have electricity in my own home. I have water in my own home. I have grass that needs to be cut. All of those things are true, but they should not supplant or surpass my commitment to Christ. And my commitment to Christ should be palpably evident in my frequent conversation. To be carnally minded is death. To be carnally minded is to be hostile toward God. Colossians, the Apostle Paul explains in his episode to the Colossians that if we are in Christ into our by our spirit, we now have the newfound capacity to set our affections.

  8. 14:34

    If you recognize through this discourse that you may be carnally minded, the only thing that's needed is to humbly confess that to God because it is sinful and repent and ask God to reorder your affections to where you will no longer be carnally minded, but you are captivated by the supremacy of Christ. According to a recent study of hundreds of post-aportive women, 60% reported that they would have preferred to give birth if they had received more support from others or had more financial security. And that's where preborn steps in. Preborn is there for women in their darkest hour, deciding between the life and death of their precious child. You see, the reality is, women are being pressured to make this fatal decision and are being told that their babies are just a clump of cells. Preborn welcomes women with God's love and introduces them to the beautiful life growing inside of them, which doubles their babies' chance at life. When you support preborn, you not only support women, you empower them. Your donation of $28 will help a woman to make a choice that she won't have to regret for the rest of her life and gives her the ultimate blessing. your love can save a life. Just dial pound 250 and say the key word baby. That's pound 250, baby. Or visit preborn.com. That's preborn.com. Shining light into the darkness, this is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio. Welcome back to the Hamilton Corner and there back. In Conquerel. Kendra White, co-hosts of Hannah's Heart, heart which can be heard every Saturday from 5 to 5 30 p.m. Same time you listen to this program on Saturdays, turn it on. You'll hear their program on Saturdays as well as 11 the 11 30 a.m.

  9. 16:35

    On Sundays, so depending on what time you gather with the Lord's people for worship, you could either be on your way or after here and in the Kendra on Hannah's heart where their program focuses on encouraging couples, walking through infertility and miscarriage. it is about clinging to Christ, the ultimate hope and finding peace and joy in the midst of the journey. Notice the journey, not the destination because God is good regardless of the outcome of our journey but enjoying him through that process. Anakin, thank you guys for coming back here. It's a delight. Entering the thunder. An honor to be here. Oh, the honor is mine. In our last conversation and I say, please, would you guys come back and I didn't ask you you off there, ask you on the air. You can feel the pressure of a few of our closest friends from around the country. But now you guys graciously agreed to do so because we were having a conversation which is vital in our current climate, but not just in our current climate because what I endeavor to do to this program and some days I feel like I do a better job than others is to establish a biblical framework from which we engage the issues of our day. You know, having a biblical worldview, one of the fundamental flaws I believe we have is people often describe the book of worldview starting with how it impacts us. When really the foundation will starting point should be God. In its God's world, it is His view, and we have the express privilege of embracing His view in navigating life, which unsurprisingly is best for us to thrive, not just to survive, but to thrive. And one of those areas where I think it's vitally necessary is on the issue of life. If we, as a society had an established understanding concern in the sanctity of life, I don't think we'd have such a visceral knee jerk reaction to things like the Alabama ruling and issues like in vitro fertilization. So I wanna begin the conversation now, really continuing from our previous conversation around the Alabama ruling. There are a lot of factual details that people don't know.

  10. 18:36

    And so what, I guess I'll start with you, Kendra, what do people need to know about that case, factually first and then and I'll ask you to then talk about the ruling and in particular the judges in my opinion Affirmation of the sanctative human life sure so my understanding is that the case revolves around some families who had some frozen embryos And they were pro-life families that were looking forward To be able to implant these and when we say frozen embryos, let's go ahead and clarify for some of our listeners We're talking about babies. Yeah, we're talking about humans that have been created Conception has already occurred. After some stage one human beings. Yes. So I guess somebody broke in to one of the fertility clinics. And I don't know the details around how that happened, but there were not proper protocols in place. Went to take out one of these frozen vials, dropped it, and these lives were lost. So these families are obviously heartbroken that these lives were destroyed because of carelessness. they are suing for negligence of how this is and they are it's it's not murder i believe the charge is that it's wrongful death which you could probably mister lawyer pants tell us that's his official title so that's what they were in the air the seat of my legal knowledge comes from the from the pants that he wears but yet so they're there wanting uh... these lives to be acknowledged you know so the first thing that happened had to happen in this court case was they had to acknowledge that that was life So that's what really happened here. And so then the reactions that came from this, all of the clinics in Alabama closing down and saying IVF is ruined forever was basically because this ruling acknowledged that life begins at conception, they're gonna say, well, you are gonna have some responsibility after you create it. And some of the typical protocols that were in place at these clinics did not prepare for that. So now I don't know that they necessarily needed to close and stop in the middle of IVF treatments for all of these couples, but the fear was, if they had been practicing all along that life begins at conception and is sacred, they would not have had to shut doors.

  11. 20:52

    And you wouldn't have had that, such an extreme reaction to that. Then of course, there was a movement to try to reverse the ruling, or they were trying to save IVF, you just saw a lot of stuff on social media of couples. There's so many scare tactics out there to make people say that we can't do IVF anymore. I don't have control over my embryos, and that was just not the case. It's not true. It was not true. So a little of the legalese wanted a distinction in the conclusion being wrongful death versus homicide. It's simply taken out the technical legal Latin phrases mens rea. And so it is the mental component. It wasn't an intentional termination of human life. It was a non-intentional action that led to the termination of human life. Hence, the wrongful death assessment as opposed to homicide and the judge in the case are authored. It pretty strong articulation of the fact that a conceived child, when egg and sperm meet, that new life is formed, that that is in fact a human being within the previously established Alabama State Constitution in the constitutional framework. And so it shouldn't have been a surprise to people that the state of Alabama recognized a stage one human being as in fact a human being, but what ended up happening was the political football that happened as a result of it when people panic and say, oh no, this is going to happen because all is necessary is to treat human life with the care that is required for human lives. Just the left pushing back, they were trying to make it seem like any IVF doctor, that they're responsible if even conception does not occur, that they're killing babies, which is not the truth. That's not the same thing. That's not the same thing. Or someone had a miscarriage or something like that. There are some facilities that are faith-based, that are very responsible, very few of them, but they do IVF in different ways. And nobody is trying to accuse a doctor if a conception does not occur, or even if it's unfortunately, we live in a very fallen world where the chemicals in our world, the toxins impact, once a frozen embryo is created their ability to continue on.

  12. 23:04

    And so nobody is holding doctors responsible for those lives that just genetically have problems and stop. But there is what we're trying to put in place is some regulations to say, you need to treat this as a life. And I think that's an important distinction. This is a lot of the news is trying to make it just, IVF is completely done away with and these Republicans who are, they claim to be pro-lifers, but they don't want, they're against families. And look at this family. They don't want a family to be able to grow, you know? It's just so the opposite of what anyone's trying to do with this case. And Alabama's actually not the only state that has already done this, Louisiana is also another state that makes you view these embryos as children. And if you don't view them as children, they are viewed as property. We need to know that's the thing. that you can just like FedEx these babies in the mail, you know, like overnight. I'm like, does that sound right? It's not right, you know, like we need to protect these little lives. And they are the most innocent out of, and vulnerable out of anyone, you know? And so, you know, us as humans, we have created a huge problem, having ever 1.2 million frozen embryos in the United States. And so there's, I don't know if we touched on it but there's a lot stricter regulations in other countries, as in Germany and France, that you can't just go off and start creating embryos that you don't have any plans to use, because now look at our predicament that we're in right now. And on a pastoral side of this, not that I'm a pastor, but in the way that we minister to other believers, I think it's really important that the average Christian understands what IVF is, what the typical protocol is, and that there are other ways of doing it that are more life affirming, so that when a couple comes to you and they're in your congregation and they say, ah, we're struggling and then we're thinking about IVF, you can help educate them and have a compassionate conversation that's also truthful, you know, because Jesus was the perfect, perfectly filled with truth and love.

  13. 25:17

    And it wasn't a balance of those two. He was not 50% of one and 50% of the other. He was 100% both. And so I think as Christians, we're being accused right now of not having a heart for those that are struggling with infertility. That's why Hannah's heart exists. We get it. It's so painful. And there does have to be a certain level of compassion when you're approaching couples, who this is their only option for building a family. Nobody comes to IVF just because it's fun. It is awful. It is not a fun process. And usually it's the last step. And they've gone through so much. And so we do have to have compassion, but we can't let our compassion keep us from speaking the truth of God's word. Yeah, when you say, and I wanna be clear for everybody listening, because you know people can hear what they wanna miss here, when you say it is awful, you're not talking about IVF being awful in and of itself, but you're talking about being in the position to where it is your last co-potentialist. And it's expensive, there's a lot of hormones that are difficult on your body. The impact on. impact anyone who's had to endure IVF. Man, I see you and I feel you and it's difficult and I understand what that's like. Yeah. Let's take a moment and many people know already but I'd like to start with Anne, just tell a little bit of your personal journey when you say Hannah's heart exists because of your, not only sympathy but your empathy with people who are struggling through this issue. So my husband and I, basically like a lot of other couples, know we had our like we called the two-year plan you know after we get married we want to be married for about a year or two and then try for kiddos and so that two-year mark came up and no one in my family that I knew of at the time had struggled with infertility or anything and so you know you just kind of picture like you just get off of birth control because that's what I was on at the time I would not encourage anyone to get on birth control just more natural methods So I'm not trying to say, you know, to just that's the conversation. And it is, it is, it is.

  14. 27:18

    But I fully, and I might have some corrections on this, but I do believe it messed my body up after years of taking such an unnatural product. You're not alone in that conclusion. I know. There are many people, especially many women listening right now, they're saying amen, amen. Right. Well, that is my personal conviction now, and that is what we will live on with, my husband and I. but after that, getting as graciously tried for a long time and that had lots of physical symptoms that I didn't know what was going on. To be honest, I was kinda passed around on the medical field of just like, normally this wouldn't cause as much pain. I'm surprised you even felt that. And you know, just whatever. I went to the ER one time and like totally acted like I was, you know, there was no reason for me to be there. Well, I ended up finding out I had multiple cysts that I'd ruptured and they didn't catch that until days later when blood work came back. And so anyway, just things that I had never had problems with, all of a sudden I was having problems with month to month. And so anyway, long story short, I ended up going to a different doctor who day one he diagnosed me with polycystic ovarian syndrome. And if you're in the infertility world at all, you know, what that is. It's just lots of complications with female problems that you have month to month and so and it definitely can cause weight gain, it can cause type 2 diabetes, acne and infertility and miscarriage and so that is we have walked through six miscarriages now and miscarriages have continued on after even now having a baby girl. But anyway, we started getting on different medicines and yeah, it makes your body, makes you go kind of crazy when you're on these different hormones and not really even understanding yourself when you look in the mirror and you're like, I don't even know who I am right now because they make you feel so crazy.

  15. 29:25

    But anyway, after almost four years of being after being diagnosed with infertility, PCOS, and surgeries, hormones, all the things. My doctor found that it was like, look, I feel like I'm wasting my time in yours. And I feel like I'm wasting your financials. Like, IVF is what you need to consider next. And we're in Tupelo, Mississippi. He was gonna send me to Dallas, Texas. And we were gonna need to live there for a few weeks and go to the doctor and like, protocol was there gonna be around $35,000. And so yeah, when you hear this stuff, now we do have a clinic closer in Memphis, Tennessee. I'm not sure why he thought that I needed to go to Dallas. That is just who he trusted more and because they did things a certain way. But that was definitely not the more natural way of doing anything. And so just, it didn't take us long to decide. And we had already kind of talked. We had adoption on our heart very strongly. We had kiddos through foster care in our home at the time. And so Will and I had already pretty much decided, like if we get to the point of obvious is the last option, it's not gonna be our option. I'm not saying that for not to not be anyone's option. That was just our personal conviction. And we just said if we have $35,000, not that we have it sitting around, but if we were to raise that money, there may be in our town that need to be adopted first, you know, before creating more that potentially wouldn't work. And after so many years of doing all this stuff, it's like, I don't know if I care to do more of that, you know? And so, anyway, that is where we got. And I know not everyone has the same story, but a few months later, and this could be getting into a whole nother topic, but we changed a lot of things about our lifestyle, the things we even washed our clothes in, not having candles in our house, the medicines we were willing and not willing to take, Things like that and all of a sudden my hormones, they tested them again and they were better and then they were better.

  16. 31:30

    And then all of a sudden I got pregnant with Jane and she is two and a half today. And so, you know, that is definitely not everyone's story. And we've still walked through two miscarriages since Jane's been born. And then I mentioned on the last show, my John Marico who passed away last year at 26 weeks. And so anyway, I know how this feels to be in this place though, but it is always a place even though it's so hard, we're still called to honor the Lord first and to know, and I've been so admired, Kendra so much for figuring out a God honoring way to do this because I didn't even realize those things were an option. We didn't know how much we needed each other. So we had this heart came on our own, which is when we leaned on each other through so many things. Absolutely. We'll get into this some more on the other side of the break. The disrespectful music is grabbing us now But I want want to invite you Kendra to share your aspect of your account too because when you hear from Ann and Kendra You're not hearing from someone on a soap bop preaching down to anyone. This is what they have lived and continue to live But as I said earlier their heart that their show was dedicated to honoring God through the journey whatever the consequences may be. And that is what the Body of Christ has to ascribe. We cannot be circumstantially and comfort driven. We have to be driven by conviction to honor the Lord. Come with me. Hamilton Quarter Podcast and One-Minute Common Terrets are available at eFR.net. Back to the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio. Welcome back to Hamilton Corner, Abraham Hamilton, III with Anne Cockrell, Kendra White, co-hosts of Hannah's Heart. Before we were caught by the disrespect of the music, Anne, you were sharing a bit of your background, and I wanna invite Kendra to share a bit of your story, because I think it's vitally important for people to understand that as we're having this conversation, that you two in particular are not those who are speaking from a lofty soapbox or a perch to condescend on others.

  17. 33:47

    You're talking about what you've lived, and this is what the Body of Christ is here for, the scripture commands that we are to build one another up, let the strong bear the infirmities of the weak. And in their times when you may be the strong, when there are times you may be the weak. And there are many people who may not have even thought about considering, is there a God honoring way to approach this issue? What do I really believe? There are lots of people for years who have been advocating for pro-life policy positions, but then when confronted with the prospect of infertility or things of that nature may have adopted a position that is not life affirming in God honoring. And so that would be a time when the body of Christ would come alongside and say, hey, have you considered this? You know, so kinder. Yes, I'll try to be brief, but nobody who's struggled with infertility or miscarriage is their story brief. Like that's the, it's the tediousness of it that is hard to convey in a quick testimony. But my story, I longed to be a mama and a wife and it took forever for that joke or the show up on the scene, Abe. It was so long. I wouldn't expect it to be. So I'll speak to my single ladies out there. Let me just say, it's worth the wait to do it God's way, because I would so much rather be single than unhappily married. And biblically, man, that commitment is forever. So waiting to find someone that agreed with my life's goals life's goals and objectives was so huge. And my husband, Eric Knox, is that, all that in a bag of chips. And he's not perfect, but he is... Eric, I had her say that by the way. He paid me right before the show. He is amazing. And his testimony is fantastic. And part of his testimony ties into why we struggle with infertility. So my husband was 15 years old when he had a car accident. He had a truck roll over him and was paralyzed from the waist down.

  18. 35:47

    And so, you know, you're dating someone and nobody, when you picture, like, what does my future look like? You don't picture a chair stuck to somebody's booty for the rest of their life. It's just not in the typical. That one of those Disney movies. It wasn't in the dream world, but I met this man. And his life had been so radically transformed by Christ. And what I loved was that he came pre-tested, right? He had been to the pit and had walked through something hard and knew that God was enough. And so I knew, man, if anything comes into our life and our relationship, he's gonna cling to Christ. He's not gonna give up if something hard happens. And anyways, the Lord, as I've perfectly considered, whether or not we should be married, the issue of children came up and we wrestled with, he had some of his own fears of just being a father. And I was like, look, I don't care how they come, but Ken White is called to be a mama. So they can be adopted, but this is in me. And you don't need to marry me if it's not something that the Lord has called you to do. So after much prayer, the Lord began to really work on his heart to even be open and to see, I'm really letting go of some of his insecurities and fears of even being a father in a wheelchair who could be a parent. And then the question came, can we have biological children and we didn't know the answer until we would get married? So as I said yes to him in a hot air balloon, I just really, I felt like the Lord said, can you trust me? And I'm asking you to trust me. And he didn't say, I'm promising you're gonna have biological children. He just said, trust me. And so that was very scary. But as we jumped into this, I began doing research because typically the women in the st, the men are like, the Lord's gonna make it happen. And the women are like googling every possibility. And what if I ate an entire pineapple? that increase our odds, you know? And so one apple's a big deal in fertility, we're over time. I don't know why eating a pineapple cord, it's not actual factual.

  19. 37:49

    But anyways, that's one of the things we talk about on the show is having, you know, it can feel like a part-time job when you're trying to conceive children. And so how do we, as women, not let this consume us, or become something that becomes an idol in our life, but also finding the balance of being proactive when you live in a fallen world, and our bodies are impacted by sin. So I had to Eric's issue stemmed from his paralysis, so it was very different than most infertility. So I really had to do a lot of research, you know? And we ended up getting accepted into a grant research program in Miami. We flew out to Miami, found that there was a possible path forward for us to have children through a medical procedure that he would have to have. We ended up then COVID hit and the program shut down and all your dreams and everything are on pause and all right, Lord, what's the plan? And we waited for a good while and we ended up going back I think a year and a half later and did what's called an IUI and found out when we did the IUI that that was not gonna be a good path for us, that our chances were less than 1% and that's with us paying to fly to Miami and have a hotel. So it's an IUI is an acronym for something. It is an interuterine insemination. And so it's not IVF, but it's what they usually, like we went through four IUI's, it's what they usually suggest you do before, before moving on to IVF. And so we tried to pursue that and found out that that was not gonna be a good option for us. And we're told then that IVF was the only route forward. And that was kind of like a screeching halt for us because I didn't know a whole lot about IVF, but I had heard about this problem of so many frozen embryos. And I was like, I just initially have this reaction of like, this doesn't feel right. So as I started looking into it, just the concerns kept coming up as I looked at just what a typical IVF protocol is.

  20. 39:57

    Yes. Would you explain that? Yeah. And then build towards non-discord facilities. Sure. When IVF was created, it was just a woman, they went in with her natural cycle, they were tracking her ovulation, went in, got one egg, they fertilized it, they put it in and it implanted in her uterus and became a child. This is in 1978. Yes, a little while ago. So what happened was they found later, the whole process of going and collecting the egg requires a lot and not every egg is suitable for IVF. for IVF and that's just again, part of us living in a fallen world and our genes being affected by toxins. So they might go and get that egg and it's not mature or it's not even useful. So they said, well, what if we increased our chances a little bit and they started giving women some hormones to be able to stimulate their ovaries and the follicles to produce more eggs. So then they realized, well, wow, why not just two or three or four? try to make our average 15 and we have more genetic material to work with and so this is where the ethical problems come in so then they started finding something called genetic testing so let's say a woman goes in and she gets 15 eggs let's say 12 of them fertilize that is a human life that's been created that is an embryo now not all of those will continue to develop and be able to be implanted but they said well let's try to get the ones that are the best the strongest and how do we select those? How not to you. How are you? Exactly. Very true. Well, it's gotten out of hand. We're the genetic testing now allows them to be able to determine hair color and eye color. Boy, girl. And say, I don't want a boy. So we're only going to go for a girl this time. So go ahead and discard those. But Harris Hilton was recently in the news because she has I think like 24 frozen embryos because she wanted a girl and then something with the eye color. She was very specific on what she wanted, and the other ones just didn't.

  21. 42:00

    I mean, make the claim. You know, make the claim. You know, make the claim. You know, make the claim. Yeah, and it is what it is. And to be clear. God is the one, no matter how conception occurs, that spark that happens when life is created, only God can create that. No scientists, first of all, they're working with material that God provided. Secondly, only, like just because they try to fertilize the egg doesn't mean that it will. They have to watch and they call you back with your results. So God is in control of that. but their controlling is killing life. They're being selected by reducing life. And let me just for a moment, because this is funny, yesterday I was talking on the program about a book my wife and I are reading together is CS Lewis Miracles. Okay. And when you think about miracles, people automatically go to what may be viewed as dramatic, but I guess, but one of the things that has occurred that is a demonic reality is that we as a society have been cultivated to ignore miracles that are routine. The routine nature of God's divinity at work should not lessen our perception of it being divine action. The reality of an egg being fertilized by sperm is not an automatic phenomenon. Whether you are biologically endeavoring to reproduce, whether you are using assistance to do so, it is not an automatic and no man can control whether or not an egg is fertilized. That is the divine finger involved in man's affairs. And so to call when we say every child is a miracle, no, it really, he or she literally is, without God's divine intervention, they would not be. And so we really need to understand that as we approach life in general, but particular this particular aspect of a conversation that we're having.

  22. 44:03

    And to add on to that, no matter how a child is conceived, they are created in the image of God. Amen. Full stop. And I think when we're talking about IVF, we need to keep in mind that others who may choose to create life in a way that is not life affirming as an oxymoron as that sound. The child that still comes from that union is still created in the image of God. Even though there are some methods that we don't agree with as believers. I don't believe in using donor sperm or donor eggs. I don't believe in most situations surrogacy. But if a child comes from that union, they are still precious and in his sight. But one of the other problems with the typical protocol, often they will, depending on your age, they're like, we need you to get pregnant soon because the time is ticking. So we're gonna put three or four or five frozen embryos into your uterus and knowing that not all of them and plant, but the problem is what happens if they do. If you have five that implant, that is an extremely dangerous procedure. A lot of us might remember the Octomom and the news way back in the day and some of those very dangerous pregnancies, those were the result of this kind of protocol of IVF. So they say, and for the babies. Yes, for the babies as well. So they created something called selective reduction. What are they reducing? How not-seous. Right. What are you reducing? Yeah. You've created people to kill them. You've created people to kill them, yeah. So you're going in and you're saying, okay, we're just gonna take out three of these. We're gonna leave you with twins and see how they grow. So those are some of the big picture issues that my husband and I had with IVF. We also had some concerns just about even the process of freezing eggs is that safe for the baby, is it responsible with life? And so for us, IVF was a no-go. And then I think they're Hannah's heart. We're always doing research of different things and topics to talk about on the show, and I ran across a podcast and someone referred to mini IVF, which stands for minimal stimulation IVF.

  23. 46:06

    I never heard of this. This is really going back to the roots of how IVF was created, that natural cycle following a, not stimulating 15 to 40 eggs, but a handful. You can do something called natural cycle, which is no stimulation at all. As we started looking into many stimulation, basically the doctors can work with you to try to create the number of frozen embryos that you feel comfortable transferring. So we are our goal. What is transfer? So what they do is they would collect the egg, they would harvest the egg, they would fertilize it, and then three days, either three or five days later is the optimal window for when they can put that back into the woman's uterus and hope that it will implant and stay. So, yes, so in my husband and I situation, you know, we were comfortable with twins. So we said, you know, if we end up having two frozen embryos, we're okay with that. So we maybe tried to collect three or four eggs knowing that not all of them would be viable to use for IVF. And two of them were, and you know, the first time that we ended up trying this, we had two beautiful embryos. We got a picture of them, transferred them, they implanted and then stopped growing. We had something called a chemical pregnancy devastating. We felt led to try one more time, and that's when we got our beautiful daughter Eliana. We again had the same procedure happen. We had two embryos, one of them implanted and was our daughter, and we lost the other. So we have those precious other little babies in heaven, but we felt that this for us was a responsible way to handle life. And we ended up doing a clinic that was called a non-discard facility. You mentioned that, meaning that they will only do IVF in a way that babies, frozen embryos, are never destroyed or discarded. And they really work with the couples to ask you the hard questions ahead of time. And this is what happens with other couples. They don't ask the hard questions. They wait till they have the problem, and then they're left with not very good solutions. So they ask, how many children do you want?

  24. 48:08

    Are you okay putting your embryos up for adoption? because a lot of people think they would be, but then they have a child and they see that it looks like them and all of a sudden, I can't. And then you're... The embryo is just spreading. Stay frozen until they can't pay for storage. Yeah, and then they just try to... I'm gonna have to stop right there. Sorry. Y'all can't hear it, but I can. The clock's ticking. The clock's ticking and the music is... Rolling. It's rolling. And in Kinger, thank you guys for being here. Help us to navigate this issue. What an important one it is. The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family Association or American Family Radio.

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