Aug 17, 2021 · 54 minutes How can we abandon 86,000 people who helped us, to die in all likelihood at the hands of the Taliban?
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Guest Host, Alex McFarland, is joined by Author and Speakers, Becky Pippert and Mark Mittelberg.
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Guest Host, Alex McFarland, is joined by Author and Speakers, Becky Pippert and Mark Mittelberg.
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Darkness is not an affirmative force. It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light. This is the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio. It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite. Delivery people out of the bondage of mainstream media. And the philosophies of this world. God has called you and me to be his ambassadors. Even in this dark moment. Let's not miss our moment. and now the Hamilton Corner. Welcome to this edition of the Hamilton Corner. Alex McFarland here. I have the privilege of sitting in for Abe Hamilton III. And we've got a great show, folks. This is really the most important topic that Christians could be talking about, in my opinion. And that is the topic of evangelism, because as we all know that in Mark 1615, the Lord Jesus said, go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Matthew 28, 18 through 20, very often called the Great Commission, Jesus said that we are to go into all the world and make disciples. And as vital and as important as that is, very often Christians and sometimes even pastors don't feel very competent or capable in sharing the gospel. And we've got a great show folks. I cannot overstate how excited I am about this because we're going to hear from two people that quite literally are experts. I mean, they have been used by God to touch millions of lives. They've been used by God to call the church to evangelism and sharing the good news of the Lord Jesus Christ. And one that you'll meet later on in the show is Mark Middleburg, longtime friend and colleague. Mark and I have done a lot of events around America, and I met him through Lee Strobel. But right now, we're gonna meet somebody that impacted my life in the late 1980s when I was a college student and I became a Christian through a Monday night Bible study. But right away I had a lot of concern for friends of mine that weren't believers yet at that point. And I began to really try to get out of my shell. I was an introvert, very shy. The last person you ever would think would be sharing the gospel or be a witness for Christ.
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But I was concerned for my friends and I began to try to read about how I could share the gospel. And I was not in the ministry. I didn't know that God would call me to the ministry. But I came across a book called Out of the Salt Shaker and Into the World. Now if there were a book title Hall of Fame, that is a Hall of Fame book title. I knew right away that I had to get this book. I've got it to this day. And the author, Rebecca Manley-Pippert, the author is with us. That book has become literally a modern day classic in evangelism. And she, just a very wonderful person, Becky Pippert, she's with us now. And Becky, first of all, I wanna welcome you to the American Family Radio Network. But more importantly, I wanna thank you for how you have reminded the body of Christ about our call to evangelism. It's good to have you with us. Oh, Alex, thank you so much. It is really a joy to be able to talk to you today. It really is. Well, so how did God call you into this? To be a spokesperson for evangelism? Well, I think part of the answer to that is I wasn't raised. wonderful family, but they just wasn't when I began looking and seeking, and then eventually became a Christian. I was the first person in my family to be a Christian and to give you an idea of my spiritual flavor. When I went to talk to my paternal grandmother and said to her, she says to me, well, your father tells me, you're religious. I could have handled something else not this. And I said, well, I've come to know God, I love God. And I've met him through Jesus Christ.
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And she goes, well, it's too bad. You've never met your great-great-great grandfather. Now, Alex, there were, I mean, my parents, my grandparents on either side, aunts, uncles, cousins, nobody would have said they were a Christian. They weren't hostile. They just, it wasn't part of their lives. And so she goes, well, it's too bad you never met your great-great-grandfather. And I went, oh my goodness, was my great-great-grandfather a Christian? And she said, well, for heaven's sake, Specky. He was a boy scout. And I said, no, okay. I mean, like, did he read the Bible in praise? He goes, I didn't say he was a fanatic. That kind of wonderful family, but definitely, you know, not believers. When I came to the Lord, those are the people I wanted to reach. And by God's grace, I remember in my family, eventually came to the Lord, even my grandparents, opening up a long time. But how I spoke, I knew I couldn't use church talk. I knew I couldn't use that they were watching me very carefully. did I love them or was I judgmental? Did I really care about them, et cetera? All of that is really what led me, I think, in this tremendous passion for evangelism. And what year did you write the book out of the salt shaker? Yes, I wrote it in my late 20s in, I think it was published in 80, maybe 79 or 80. And it was my first book and I had been on Intervarsity staff. I'd done my BA and MA and English literature. It was just about ready to start a doctorate in English when I was asked by Intervarsity if I would join them on and be a staff worker at a place called Reed College in Portland, Oregon, which was very radical and very good, very cool interest in general and it was a perfect key thing for me again not realizing I was an evangelist I didn't know that I just knew I had a passion the Christian students who were there be able to well you know the book is such a classic and and Becky I've got to say this yesterday afternoon when we confirmed that we could interview you in emails and a couple of phone calls I told friends of mine around the country I said hey tomorrow's gonna be really special I get to interview Becky Pippert and instantly people were saying, oh my goodness, really is she the lady that wrote out of the salt shaker? And I was like, yeah, I mean that book really has touched so many people. As you were writing it, did you have the sense that God was doing something really special? I mean, did you think, you know, okay, this book is going to really become a classic. Did you have that sense? My publisher said it was IVP who I did two books on evangelism but that was my first and that was with University Press and I remember I know it's my editor and he said, Peckey, you have any idea? I mean a sense maybe of how well this will sell and I said, now my grandmother now become a Christian and I go, well I can dig to ten people and my grandmother shall give it to the mailman you know i mean she just said that that that was that never in a million years i felt here's the thing i knew i knew that the way i was seeing christians evangelize it says would have been in the eighties early eighties that i didn't think it wasn't effective nor did i feel it was it was even a biblical that that wasn't that their heart wasn't right But back then, the view of evangelism was share the gospel with as many people as possible in the least amount of time, move on as quickly as you can, especially if they don't seem interested.
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Believers were encouraged to say the exact same thing to everybody while ignoring the fact that people are really different. And they tended to say very much in their Christian bubble because they were afraid the friending unbelievers would compromise their walk. So evangelism was talk and a taught and a formulaic one-size-fits-all approach with an emphasis on numbers and techniques. And so I wrote out of the salt shaker way back then because I knew Jesus' way of witness was different. He never spoke the same way twice to people he encountered. He sought to understand the person he was speaking to. He listened, he asked questions, he demonstrated empathy and love. He wasn't in a hurry and he never made people feel like they were his evangelistic projects. I remember when I started looking so carefully in the gospels, the more that I became interested in evangelism, he didn't have a formula. He didn't have two sets of questions he always asked. The essence of the gospel message is the same, but how we introduced it really depended on the person that he was speaking to. So out of the salt shaker, I think part of the reason why it took hold is that it was a radical idea then to call Christians to share their faith, to share the gospel as a part of a relationship rather than sort of a hit and run. Amen. I think, now here's the interesting thing though, and that is back in the 80s, I think Christians were much more confident in the truth of the gospel than I think believers are today. what they were weak on was understanding the importance of relationship. But Alex today it's the reverse that we are, I think somewhat better at understanding the need for authentic relationships and genuinely caring for unbelievers and listening, drawing them out, understanding their questions.
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But we tend to be much weaker and lack confidence in how to communicate the gospel in this present cultural moment. It's stronger on relationship than we were back in the 80s, but we're weaker on truth. And that's why, gosh, in 2020, my second book, I've only written, I've written many books, but I've written only two on evangelism. And that was, that was the second book on evangelism. The world has changed. Our message must not. Before we go too much further, I want you to give your website folks. If you're just tuning in, this is Alex McFarland. And we are talking with Becky Pippert, an expert on a lot of things, but I think primarily she's known for evangelism and helping people represent Jesus as we are called to do, as we have the privilege of doing. Give us your website, Becky. BeckyPippert.org.org. P-I-P-P-E-R-T. That's right. So I would imagine out of the salt shaker, opened up a lot of opportunities for your traveling and speaking, didn't it? Yeah, it was amazing. It absolutely changed my life. I think it, I can't remember, 25, 28 languages, and all of a sudden it was so intimidating. I was in my 20s still, and now late 20s, but all of a sudden I've become this authority on evangelism. I was passionate about evangelism. And I move from student ministry, in the Pacific Northwest with the University, to church ministry. Now for the first time churches from every different stripe and denomination were asking for help. And so it was an amazing journey and exciting.
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But here's the thing I find so interesting. And I find it the same today. We all, Christians tend to have all the same fears when it comes to witnessing. It was true then, it's true now. We just spent seven years in the UK and Europe, one of the most secular cultures on the planet. Now, I'm saying that particularly about UK and Europe, it would be certain countries are quite secular. But when we work with churches and we work with university students, but I still find the same thing. And that is people have the same kind of fears. And they need help in overcoming their fears as well as knowing what is the gospel and how do we communicate it for such a time as this. Well we've got a break coming up and so I want to dig into this. But yeah, what is the gospel? I was just thinking about that, Becky. There are some things that need to be conveyed in helping people understand what the gospel is. So, what's the most foundational thing? When we're talking with people about the Lord, about Jesus, what is the key thing that we need to convey? Listen, the first thing we need to do, I was just asked this on a radio interview and he said, Becky, how can we unmask this? all the time he said, how can we quickly, what can we do to quickly get to the gospel and get them, you know, on our turf? And I said, the first thing we do in order to be able to communicate faith is get on their turf first. I have to say that. Hold that thought. Hey, forgive me Becky. Okay. When we come back, we're going to talk about how to get on their turf. Alex McFarland here, you're listening to the American Family Radio Network.
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We're talking with Becky Pippert, author of Out of the Salt Shaker and the newer book, Stay Salt. Talking about evangelism, stay tuned. We're back after this brief break. This June marks two years since the overturn of Roe vs. Wade, but did you know that the number of abortions actually increased the following year? In 2023, the amount of abortions reached its highest level since 2012. Preborn continues to stand strong for women in crisis. and is a ministry of compassion that showers women and babies with God's love, providing free ultrasound to mothers to introduce them to the precious life growing inside them. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, she is twice as likely to choose life. $28 sponsors one ultrasound and $140 helps rescue five babies. Your generous tax deductible donation will also help to provide women who choose life with assistance for up to two years. So please give your best gift to donate dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby that's pound 250 baby or visit preborn.com slash aFR that's preborn.com slash aFR. Shining live into the darkness. This is the Hamilton corner on American family radio. You know if you're a believer somebody shared the message of Jesus with you and that's That's what we're talking about on this edition of the program, Hi, Alex McFarland here. Hey, by the way, if you recognize my voice, it's probably from a show called Exploring the Word, Heard Live, five days a week on the American Family Radio Network. And so if you would tell people about AFR.net, the stations are all over the country and then of course all the shows can be streamed digitally on AFR.net as well. I invite you to tune in four to five Eastern time and the time zone of your choice, exploring the word.
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But I have the privilege of being on right now and we're talking with Becky Peppert, just an author and Christian leader I've admired for many, many years, very influential in evangelism. And Becky, I wanna resume what we were talking about before the break. You were talking about in a conversation, as we're maybe steering the conversation toward the gospel, getting on their turf. I want you to elaborate on what you mean by that, getting on their turf. Yeah, it is, I think, one of the biggest mistakes that we make in evangelism is in our love for the Lord and desire to share the gospel. We tend to not listen carefully enough. We've got to find out who they are. What are their questions? We ask questions. Jesus did it all the time. And as you're listening, as you're asking the Holy Spirit silently and prayer, show me where their needs are. Show me where their longings are. And let me understand what are their questions. It is so important. And I'm talking about this in the early stages. Maybe it depends on where you are. Is this going to be the only time you see this person? Okay, so even still, we do the exact same thing. but with some more going to see more regularly, you're gonna have more time to understand their needs, their longings, but they need to see that we care. They need to see that we have now where they are. And I'm talking about in the beginning of the first couple of conversations when we bring up spiritual topics and we're asking questions. What you ask them and what you say is going to be based on where they are. All right, so now sometimes I'm talking to people who I go, okay, this actually ties to creation. Is there a God? Is he loving? Why did he make us?
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How did it begin? You know, was it always the trauma that we're seeing today and in civilization seems to be collapsing? Was there a time when it wasn't this way? All right? Or I'm talking to somebody that is in pain, that they've got problems, okay? that relates less to the creation and more to the crisis. What is the problem of sin? Now there is another point. You have to know how to communicate what we believe in language they understand. And so if you say, for example, when you're speaking to somebody and you're starting to talk about the thing, if you begin with, you know what your problem is, I think you're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. That's a wonderful explanation that Paul gives. But nobody's, first we have to say it in language they understand. And one of the things I'll often say, if somebody says, why is this world such a mess? And I go, well, I'm a Christian, I can tell you from the biblical perspective. We've got a God complex. We keep getting ourselves and God mixed up. We keep thinking we were on the show. And I cannot tell you how often somebody has said, well, actually, I've got a God complex I run the show and it's exhausting. And I go, you know what, I was an agnostic and I became a Christian and I did the same thing. I ran the show and you know why? It's so exhausting because it's way above our pay grade. I think it's the fact that we find it so exhausting is because it's above our pay grade. We're creatures. We're not the creator. But you see the approach is that you're listening to them. You understand their questions, you ask questions relating to the gospels of their questions, but you say it in English.
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We've got to find ways. We do, of course, training, and evangelism around the world. And one of the things I'm always trying to help people do is say, okay, let's take these doctrines of the face. How do we first communicate it? How do we say it? I'm not saying you don't use biblical language. You do. I do use the word sense, the wonderful word. They've got to understand it first. So let me ask you this. How do you turn the corner? And I know I've had many conversations like this in leading people to Christ or being used by God to share the gospel. And folks, let me encourage you. If I could get out of my shell and talk to people about Jesus, anybody could. Becky, I was like the most introverted, shy, socially awkward. Your book helped me. Bill Bright's book, Witnessing Without Fear, helped me. But here's my question. So let's say people are having a lovely conversation, beginning to talk about spiritual things. You can discern the Holy Spirit is working. How do you turn the corner and get to Jesus, the Son of God, died on the cross, rose from the dead? And you really begin to get the conversation toward the person's response to the gospel. How do you turn that corner? I've got this story and I tell a story about, we lived for seven years in the UK and we lived in different parts and we're ministering to church and to university students. There was a hair salon in London that I went to regularly, all seven years, and there was gay. And so he really began opening his life to me and what he sensed and he told me this. He said, I always thought, you know, they were judgmental, they were critical, I'd never in a million years tell them my story, but I don't feel that way with you.
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I feel you really care. So it's over a period of time that he began telling me, you know, his story, one day I walked in, are you okay? And he said, do you know, you were the first summer I've had all day who's even noticed, you really looked at it, I'm not okay. Becky, I thought my relationship with this man, my lover. I thought it was absolutely the end on my problems and it was one of the things that happened to me and he's left me for another man. And he said, I counted on him to give me my identity and my love and to make me whole. And he said, I'm really, I don't know, this is the hair so on. So we started talking and he said, I don't know why. I worshiped him and I don't know why my life is such a mess. He goes, oh, that's right now. You're a Christian. You're probably gonna tell me that. I'm just going to hell and there's no hope for me. And I go, come on, you know me well enough to know. I care about you and I'll tell you the truth. But I need to ask you something. I said, you said that you worshiped. Oh, that's it. He'd say, what you say to me would be different than what you say to a heterosexual. I said, not at all. I have a girlfriend who's lover, just left her. She said the same thing. I worshiped him. How could this go wrong? And I said, I want to tell you, do you know what one of the problems is? I said, you've heard me tell you before that we have a God complex. That's one of the problems. But I said, we got another problem. And that is that we have been created to worship God and we keep trying to worship the wrong thing.
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And I remember he looked at me and he goes, are you telling me that my problem is, I've been worshiping the wrong thing instead of God, I said exactly what the problem is and guess what, we've all done it. I've done it, everyone has done it. But I said, that is exactly why Jesus came. it is exactly what he could take that we've committed he took it and he died on the cross and he goes there's no way that he could possibly accept me for all i've done and i said but that's the good news he really had that's so we can't admit becky i was thinking about i'd say a fifty five which asked the question why do you labor for that which is not bread Why do you quest after that which does not satisfy? And we've all done it in one way or another. And I think about that quote by Augustine, Augustine said, the heart is restless till it rests in thee. Yeah, absolutely. And that's where needs so much help in evangelism is recognizing people are so much more hungry than we realize. That we need to approach them the right way in a loving way and a listening way. But realize we have been given the gospel of Jesus Christ. They don't realize it yet, but it's exactly what they're looking for. There is a hunger, and I think the hunger is even greater now because of the state of the planet. Yeah, I agree. But why we need, it's why I feel so strongly that we need equipment and training and help. Not for formulaic, not one size fits all, trying to understand how can we communicate the truth in love? How do we do it?
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Well, I want you to give your website again. And let me say I thank you so much for being with us on the program. This hopefully is not the last and I'm going to totally be a pest. I'm going to invite you to speak at conferences. But give us your website and where people can find your books. Yes. Well, you can find my books on Amazon or go to BeckyPippert.org and you can see everything there. Speak with you at conferences, Alex. That would be great. A great joy to me. Well, indeed, indeed. And Staysault is the newer book, of course, out of the salt shaker, the classic from the 1980s. But still in print, tells again how many languages has that book been translated into? I haven't asked them lately, but at least 25. Wow, congratulations. And thank you, thank you. And by the way, the reason I did state salt, world has changed, our message must not, because our culture has changed. Indeed. And so we share the gospel for such a time as this. Well thank you so much. I look forward to when we can visit again soon. Folks, Alex and Farley here, you're listening to the American Family Radio Network and we're We're talking about evangelism, the Great Commission, the gospel. I truly believe people are hungry. And we're going to visit now with another longtime friend and colleague and someone who has just influenced so many people and really not only inspired but equipped masses of the church to share the gospel. His name is Mark Middleburg. I've known Mark for a number of years. And he and Lee Strobel together and independently, they've just equipped so many people.
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He's a prolific author, a highly sought conference speaker. And like Rebecca Manley-Pippert, somebody that I believe has really been at the forefront of keeping evangelism out there and reminding the church of our privilege. Yes, it is our calling, but it's really a privilege to help people find a relationship with Jesus Christ. He's with us now. Dr. Mark Middleberg. Welcome to the American Family Radio Network. Hey, great to be back with you, Alex. It's great to be with you. You know, it's so ironic. I was getting ready this morning. I met a youth camp and I came to set up and I was thinking about I'm going to get to talk to Mark Middleberg today. And a Facebook message popped up on my phone. It said, people that you may want to follow, Matthew Middleberg. Yes, my son. Yeah, isn't that wild that, you know, on a day I'm going to get to talk with you. It says Christ follower, apologist, Christian, you know, apologist. So I'm sure you're very proud and congratulations for raising great kids yeah we have to all of them and yet matthew is also doing youtube channel on these kinds of issues as well uh... and ours our daughter and the gene works full-time for compassion international so as a parent you couldn't be more thankful for kids that do stuff like this amen amen so um... out we were talking with becky piper whom i'm sure you know uh... she said that she believes people are very hungry i think people are spiritually hungry these days uh... mark what do you say about the spiritual landscape of our of our country in world well i i i heard a term used years ago for what was happening in churches i think it's happening in our entire culture these days and it it was creative desperation and i think people are you have a sense like the things they used to count on they can't count on.
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You know, the solutions that seem so obvious here in America where, you know, well, the professionals have a figure out, the government has it figured out, the businesses will find the solution, et cetera, et cetera. I think these days we're going, we really need God back in our lives. We need a Savior. We need help. And I think most people have some sense of that. A lot of them don't know quite where to turn, a lot of them don't trust the church, but you know, Jesus is still the answer just as he has been for, you know, two millennia. So, and I think people are more and more open to hearing about him because, again, it just created desperation, this sense of I've got to think outside of the ways I've thought to find real spiritual solutions. We've got a brief break. When we come back, I want to drill down deeply into evangelism and how people can get comfortable talking with people about Jesus. Mark, give your website if you would and the title of your newest book before this break. The newest book is Conteacher's Faith and it's about how we can naturally talk about what Christ has done for us and what He can do for our friends. In my website simply mark middleburg.com, the hard part is spelled middleburg. And it's MITTEL, B-E-R-G, good German spelling, they're mark middleburg.com. Wonderful. Well, Alex McFarland here, the American Family Radio Network. Stay tuned, a brief break, and we'll be back. Bolton Quarter Podcast and One-Bitted Common Terrors are available at eFR.net. Back to the Hamilton Quarter on American Family Radio. Welcome back to the program, Alex McFarland here. What a privilege to talk with Mark Middleberg, because look, evangelism is so important.
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And I know Christians and non-Christians sometimes get a little antsy when talking about spiritual things or crossing that line in a conversation. But like I said with Becky Pippert, a few people that I've known have helped people as much in sharing the love of Jesus, the truth of the gospel, as Mark Middleburg. You know, it has to take to use this word, but it's it's apropos and that's the word expert. Mark Middleburg, in my opinion, is an expert on the gospel and he's with us now. Mark, thanks for being with us, but more importantly, importantly, thanks for reminding the church and equipping the church about this wonderful thing called the Great Commission. Well, you're welcome. It's an honor. I think if I'm an expert, it's because I've learned so much from trying things that didn't work and doing it the hard way and making the mistakes for a run-out. So hopefully I learned some wisdom along the way that can really make a difference for folks. God's grace, I have been able to write and speak about that around the world for several decades now. And man, it still works. The gospel still works and we have some approaches that are natural that I think can take the cringe factor out of a lot of what we feel when we think I have to, you know, sell them something or I have to act like someone I'm not or I have to do a little speech or those kinds of approaches. I think when people discover they can be themselves as a follower of Christ, God gave them their personality and kind of a style, on purpose, liberating to know you can do that in natural ways and it helps lower the awkwardness of the person you're talking to when you feel at ease and talk in natural ways as well.
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Yeah, exactly. And I like how you say, you know, your own style because, you know, God is not calling any of us to be something that we're not. The beautiful thing, it doesn't, who we are and our personality traits, it's very conversational. Now, I want to talk about what are the differences between our personal, you know, evangelism style, but some of the things that are the core content of the gospel regardless of who is sharing it. What are those differences? Sure. Yeah, and that's essential. We remember it's not that we find a message that's, you know, or just tell people what they want to hear or asking for. No, we're called by Christ to go into the world, you know, the great commission. He looked through the eyes of his disciples and I think he was looking at all of us. He said, I want you to go into all the world and give them the good news. Tell them about me. Tell them everything I've taught you. Make disciples, baptize them and so on. The message is prescribed that we could never improve on the gospel anyway. The fact that we are sinners who need a Savior, the Savior came. He died in our place on the cross. He rose from the dead to give us life and he's offering it to anyone who will reach out humbly and say, I need your forgiveness. I need your leadership. So that message never changes. But how we get into the conversations, what are our approaches, our methods, our style, that I think needs to vary greatly depending on who I am, who you are, what God's calling each of us to do. The book Contagious Faith, is that your most recent book? Yeah, what's ironic, Contagious Faith is my newest book, but it's also kind of a complete reworking of my first book that I did way back in the 90s, which was called Becoming a Contagious Christian.
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And by God's grace to that and the course that goes with it went around the world. We were able to train about two people around the world. and just taking those same biblical principles and updated and kind of reworked them for a new generation in the cult contagious faith and we have a six week video course that goes with that as well. Amen and people can find that at mark middleburg.com. Yeah, I would again Amazon or your local Christian bookstore but there is a website just for the product, you know, if they want to learn more about it, see the endorsements, kind of get a taste of it. And that is ContagiousFaithBook.com. ContagiousFaithBook.com. You know, when you and I first began to get to know each other, like I guess in the late 90s, early 2000s, you know, there was what was called the new atheism. And there were a lot of, you know, pretty high profile atheists out there that We're just a lot of swagger, a lot of confidence. And yet, praise God. I think people are more spiritually hungry than ever. Mark, teenagers, college kids that we're in front of by the thousands, they really are spiritually hungry. I guess I would ask this, are we past the atheism of 20 years ago? And it didn't succeed like I think some the atheist thought it would well maybe a lot of people back to their senses is when you delve into it and you see what these new a tis were saying like you say they were just people doubted god's existence they were like religiously against religion and against god as christopher hichans once said we're not just a a-tiest i'm an anti-theist i'm against god well you can't be against what doesn't exist or it doesn't seem like that makes sense as we often say you know i'm i don't believe in unicorns but i'm not mad at them is that you guys were mad at god and i think people sense that and then they also just saw how empty of the philosophy was people like Richard Dawkins who would say you know that we live in a universe where there's no meaning there's no purpose there's no right are wrong. We just danced to the tune of our DNA. Well, people know better. They know life means more than these guys were giving it credit for. They know there's a right and wrong. People wrestle with their conscience. They know they've fallen short of some kind of divine standard out there. People sense they need a savior. And so I think, you know, yeah, there are still atheists around and I, you But I think you're right, that movement lost its energy because I think people saw it for what it was.
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How do you, in a conversation, and let me just say, I've found that some of the best people to share Jesus with were people that I have a relationship with. It's not just this Rambo, you know, total stranger, grab people by the coattail. It comes naturally when you have a friendship with somebody that you can begin to talk about spiritual things, but how do you begin to turn the corner in the conversation and get from kind of chit chat to serious substantive things about the gospel? Yeah, before I answer that, let me agree with you that a friendship or relationship is the the best place to start. But I also think it can be a friendly approach or a relational approach with someone you just met. In other words, whether it's someone next to you on the airplane or the subway on the way to work or you're out hiking and you meet someone who's on the hike or whatever, just be friendly and get to know them and find out where they're from, what do they do, you got a family, whatever, just normal talk So that you have a place to turn the corner from. It's when we just walk up and, hey, do you know Jesus? And can I share with you some important truths? Then it comes off as, okay, who's this? And what is there agenda? And what, you know, so I think just doing normal conversation first, but then as you ask someone questions, you know, often they'll ask you about yourself. You can mention your faith along the way. I wouldn't start with that, but just didn't know, you know, normal conversation, well, I'm an engineer, I'm a, you know, business person, or I'm a teacher or whatever it is, but I think probably the most important thing about me is I am someone who realized I needed help.
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And I found help in a God who claimed to be the savior. And if you're interested in that, we can talk about it, but, you know, it's up to you. Well, a lot of people will be curious, And you use curiosity, Jesus called us fishers of men. And when you go fishing, at least the kind of fishing most of us do, you throw the bait out there and watch the bobber. You're not spewing these fish. You're seeing if people are interested in it, will they nibble a little bit? Will they take the bait a little bit and say, well, I'm not a religious person, but what did you mean about needing outside help? What difference did that make in your? Okay, well, it's kind of a give and take conversation where you don't push it But you just see who's interested and you give them as much as they're able to handle in that moment Since you wrote becoming a contagious Christian and then more recently contagious faith has Has the the the world changed or do you feel like people are still you know the human nature is still the same? How has evangelism changed? I would say yes and yes. Yes, the world has changed and certainly people's thinking has changed, especially in the area of truth, this idea that there is no truth, that everything is relative, you have your truth, I have my truth, that has certainly changed. And as an apologist, I love going after that. when someone says there is no truth you know the natural question to ask is that true yet not driven you're just about a non-poo if it is true then you it repeats itself because if it's true that there's no truth and there's truth and and the truth is that you can't get away from truth uh... well and let me commend you you did a book several years ago on uh... answering the questions christians hope no one will ask her the title was something along those lines yeah and questions christians open on the last with answers that is a great folks let me i've said this you know countless times there is this overlap between evangelism and apologetics and by the way more what what is apologetics the word is needed to greek word that means to give a speech of defense or to give re you know reasonable uh... explanation of why you believe what you believe And so, yeah, it's giving answers, it's giving a defense, it's giving evidence for your belief.
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And again, you don't have to do that like a lawyer, or like you're trying to trap someone in their thoughts. It's more, people are curious, they're going, okay, I hear about religion all the time, but what about Buddha, what about Muhammad, what about all these different views? Why should I follow Jesus? Well, that's a good question. And we have really good reasons. Nobody was like Jesus. You know, Buddha didn't even believe in God. In Muhammad taught all kinds of things that contradicted the history and truth about Jesus. Jesus is the one who told us the truth. Jesus was the one who proved it through his death, burial and resurrection. Jesus proved it through his miracles and by fulfilling prophecy. So we have reasons. We're not people who are those who took a blind leap faith and we're advocating everyone else jump off the cliff with us. We are people who have a reasonable trust in a savior who has proven himself and given good reason for all of us to trust in him. That's the tone of apologetics, but the goal is always not to win an argument, but to help win the person to the savior. And so for me, evangelism is what fuels giving those answers or talking about it and it's got to be based on love for the person and love for God. For the challenge you asked a minute ago, I just want to not leave that. I think the world has changed. I think the way people think has certainly changed. But human nature has not changed. We're saying it. It's confused race that is morally fallen. Just look at the news or look on the internet or look in the mirror. We're sinners who need a savior. And that has not changed, it will not change until Jesus returns. And that's where I think we make our universal appeal. That's why, even though I've been building this stuff for decades, it's why I speak to students that are ministry like some of the ministries where I'm speaking to high school and college students, because the truth we teach is just as relevant.
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The youngest generation as it is to the oldest, because we are all still sinners need to save. Amen. You know, we've got to talk again about the relationship between apologetics and evangelism because we've only got about a minute left, but I've seen it, Mark. I know you have seen it, that getting back to the commitment of evangelism and then learning some basic apologetics, I mean, it can really invigorate a church, can't it? Yes, but not just the church. can invigorate your life. And I would just say to all of our listeners, deep down you know, if you're a follower of Christ, you are here to have an impact on the people around you. And that's what we're talking about. And it's a page of space will help you find out. I talk about five natural ways or styles that you can use or come. And we're almost out of time. Mark, I'm so sorry, Mark Middleberg. Thanks for listening, folks. You can listen again at aFR.net. The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family Association or American Family Radio.